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How to lose a Vindicator- a short story.

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murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 03:21:00 - [1] Engage in a 1v1 with a Megathron with 1 racial jammer. Vindicator has 24 sensor strength. Then proceed to be jammed 4 times in a row. Statistical chance of actually being jammed 4 times in a row given the sensor strengh and known jammer strength: 1.9%. I lost a Vindicator because I had enough bad luck that I was jammed four times consecutively. No other reason. TBH I could give a f#ck about the ISK etc. It's just the principle of the matter. And the sad part is, it won't be any different in Kali. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 03:34:00 - [2] Originally by: Haffrage You haven't read this, have you? Yes I have. Even more importantly, I've been on test for the better part of a week and a half testing it myself. What the changes really amount to: nothing. ECM will be as good as it is now in Kali for all intents and purposes. It's not going to change much. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 03:46:00 - [3] Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski All of EVE needed to know that. Seems Vindicator losses need alot of stories on this forum now, maybe farjung needs to give his fanboys a bit of training other than cleaning his pants of the drools when they watch his movies. I'm no fanboi. I'm just irked that a ship like a Vindicator can be lost to something that amounts to a statistical anomaly. There was less than a 2% chance of success on the other guy's part, yet it happened. It's just bad luck is all, isn't it? Chance isn't good game design. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: murder one Engage in a 1v1 with a Megathron with 1 racial jammer. Vindicator has 24 sensor strength. Then proceed to be jammed 4 times in a row. Statistical chance of actually being jammed 4 times in a row given the sensor strengh and known jammer strength: 1.9%. You would rather go into a 1v1, with a spreadsheet showing that based on tank and dps, it is impossible for you to lose against any single opponent? I think ECM is unbalanced in terms of the disproportionate effect of receiving a single jam cycle over the course of a fight. A Thorax with a single multispec against a Thorax without a multispec, will win virtually every time. That's broken. That someone had a couple of percent chance against a vastly superior ship which in normal circumstances cannot lose - that's worth keeping in game. A couple of percent sounds about right. Most people die if they get jammed once in three cycles. I don't get it. You agree with me, and then you turn around and disagree with yourself. I'm not saying ECM should be removed. It should be balanced. Right now it is "disproportionately effective". With Kali coming the current balance of ECM won't change enough to make a difference in game play. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:28:00 - [5] Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Originally by: murder one Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski All of EVE needed to know that. Seems Vindicator losses need alot of stories on this forum now, maybe farjung needs to give his fanboys a bit of training other than cleaning his pants of the drools when they watch his movies. I'm no fanboi. I'm just irked that a ship like a Vindicator can be lost to something that amounts to a statistical anomaly. There was less than a 2% chance of success on the other guy's part, yet it happened. It's just bad luck is all, isn't it? Chance isn't good game design. I don't know, maybe if you were so good at calculating your chances of getting jammed, you'd have noticed it didn't matter and fitted ECCM. Also, If you were any decent at keeping your own killboards updated, i could probably pick on your setup. Why does everyone keep bringing up ECCM? It doesn't work. It never has. ECM is always more effective than ECCM. Why bring it up? Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:30:00 - [6] Originally by: Kerc Kasha Originally by: Admiral Pieg gawd you whine alot dont you.. You're telling me, every post I see from him he's whining about something. He just can't help himself. Man even with ECM how the hell did you lose a vindicator to a single megathron? If you're perma-jammed, you can lose any ship to any other ship. ECM completely negates a ships ability to do anything, corret? So after it's ECMed, it's just a paperweight. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:35:00 - [7] Originally by: Jin Steele Originally by: murder one luck is all, isn't it? Chance isn't good game design. sorry, but if chance isnt good game design, then i suggest you go play WoW. thats not an insult, but look at the facts. in EvE, chance allows 2 3 month old players to kill a 6 month or even 1 year old player. In WoW, there is no chance, so 2 lvl 30 characters cant kill a level 60 character. although it sucks, that 2% chance is what makes eve awesome. Jin, I've been shooting you down ever since you started playing eve. Please don't try to educate me on the state of the game or it's design elements. Chance isn't the only thing that allows a new player to kill an experienced one. Skill and imagination do. I've killed plenty of players, including yourself with very very few skill points (300k SP low enough) because I was able to maximize my capabilities and use tactics and skill to make my kills, not ECM. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Originally by: murder one Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Originally by: murder one Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski All of EVE needed to know that. Seems Vindicator losses need alot of stories on this forum now, maybe farjung needs to give his fanboys a bit of training other than cleaning his pants of the drools when they watch his movies. I'm no fanboi. I'm just irked that a ship like a Vindicator can be lost to something that amounts to a statistical anomaly. There was less than a 2% chance of success on the other guy's part, yet it happened. It's just bad luck is all, isn't it? Chance isn't good game design. I don't know, maybe if you were so good at calculating your chances of getting jammed, you'd have noticed it didn't matter and fitted ECCM. Also, If you were any decent at keeping your own killboards updated, i could probably pick on your setup. Why does everyone keep bringing up ECCM? It doesn't work. It never has. ECM is always more effective than ECCM. Why bring it up? Let's see, you're 7 months old, flying a vindicator. ECCM in a 1vs1? Because most 1vs1, people know your ship and will simply fit a racial jammer. Oh wow, you got owned by that same ol tactic. ECM is always more effective than ECCM? Oh yea, you're right. Being able to jam someone before they jam you sure is a good tactic, it worked good for you it seems. All in all, You probably would have gotten owned without being jammed anyways. Whats with the 7 month old thing? It's like you're stupid or something. Maybe I have more than one char? Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Whine on that one? Can't be asked to relog my other char for the forums. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:42:00 - [10] Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Originally by: murder one Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Whine on that one? Can't be asked to relog my other char for the forums. Evemail me your killmail then. What's the point? I'm not being contrary, I'd just like to know why you'd want it. To inspect my setup? Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 06:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Risien Drogonne If you had bothered to fit just a single ECCM, it's unlikely this would have happened. I've tried to use ECCM before. I have no faith in it. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 07:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: murder one Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: murder one Originally by: Risien Drogonne If you had bothered to fit just a single ECCM, it's unlikely this would have happened. I've tried to use ECCM before. I have no faith in it. See, that lie exposes itself. If you HAD bothered to try it, you'd know it works. Talking to you is like talking to a brick. Didn't I JUST SAY* that I've tried ECCM and have no faith in it because it doesn't work? You lied. I lied about what? Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 07:10:00 - [13] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: murder one I lied about what? About ever really testing ECCM. No, I didn't. How do you come to this conclusion? And to set you straight, not only have I tested ECCM both with RMR and Kali, but I've tried using ECCM in combat on numerous occasions, without success. So again, I ask, how did you come upon this falsity that you now think you need to slander me and call me a liar? Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 07:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: murder one No, I didn't. How do you come to this conclusion? And to set you straight, not only have I tested ECCM both with RMR and Kali, but I've tried using ECCM in combat on numerous occasions, without success. So again, I ask, how did you come upon this falsity that you now think you need to slander me and call me a liar? Because you said it doesn't work. It does. #1, that's my opinion. It's not a lie. #2 "it does" is your opinion. That is also not a lie. I think that your opinion is wrong, but you don't see me calling you a liar do you? You are insulting me. As far as I know that is against the EULA and terms of use of these forums is it not? I make my judgements about ECCM from direct personal experience and observation. For me ECCM has never worked to my satisfaction to where I would call it a 'reliable' defence against ECM. And here you are calling me a liar. You are almost as arrogant as you are stupid. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 08:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: murder one #1, that's my opinion. It's not a lie. #2 "it does" is your opinion. That is also not a lie. I think that your opinion is wrong, but you don't see me calling you a liar do you? Hmm, I see you're a product of the "everything is opinion" generation of public schooling. The fact that ECCM improves your sensors by 96% and thus makes you less vulnerable to jamming is not open to debate, nor is it an opinion. I didn't dispute that it improves your sensor strength by 96%. What I said was is that it wasn't effective enough, despite that healty increase. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 09:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: murder one Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: murder one #1, that's my opinion. It's not a lie. #2 "it does" is your opinion. That is also not a lie. I think that your opinion is wrong, but you don't see me calling you a liar do you? Hmm, I see you're a product of the "everything is opinion" generation of public schooling. The fact that ECCM improves your sensors by 96% and thus makes you less vulnerable to jamming is not open to debate, nor is it an opinion. I didn't dispute that it improves your sensor strength by 96%. What I said was is that it wasn't effective enough, despite that healty increase. Yes, I'm well aware of your belief that 1 simple ECCM module should make you immune to jamming from a million ECM modules all trying to jam you at once. Good luck with that. What other counters work that way? I tried FOUR ECCM modules at once, for a total sensor strength of something like 72. And I STILL GOT JAMMED. What are you on? Pay attention! And yeah, I DID expect to not get jammed since I used FOUR modules to avoid it. WTF? That's not good enough for you? Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 09:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Miss Overlord i digress this fool will run his course WTF, do I have to go get witnesses? You ppl have your heads so far up your asses that you think that it's just not possible? Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 11:50:00 - [18] Originally by: GBoS Originally by: murder one Originally by: Miss Overlord i digress this fool will run his course WTF, do I have to go get witnesses? You ppl have your heads so far up your asses that you think that it's just not possible? Isn't insulting people against the EULA? Appearantly not, judging from all the other insults flung at me lately. You fatalix boys have a hardon for me or something? Take a hike. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.16 00:28:00 - [19] Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 15/11/2006 23:54:38 Locke, stop posting :/ He has: 0.75^4 = 31.6% chance of winning none. 0.75^30.254= 42.2% chance of winning one. 0.75^20.25^26= 21.1% chance of winning two. 0.750.25^34 = 4.7% chance of winning three. 0.25^4 = 0.4% chance of winning four. If he buys 4 tickets from different lotteries each with a 25% chance to win. Originally by: Locke DieDrake Let me ask a seperate question... whats the "odds" of rolling a 20 on a 20 sided die? On the same die, whats the "odds" of rolling a 1. Now, whats the odds of rolling a 20 and a 1 in a row? The reason I ask, is because there are only 2 answers to this question. I'm curious which one you give. The odds for rolling a 20 is 1/20 = 5%. The odds for rolling a 1 is 1/20 = 5%. The odds of rolling first a 20 and then a 1 is (1/20) * (1/20) = 0.25% Precisely right. I guess you just have to be competent at math like dalman is in order to properly understand the statistics of the situation and therefor be able to realize the ineffectiveness of ECCM vs. fitting an ECM module yourself. And in regard to the 'just quit eve' comments- I think it's more interesting to just sit back and see what kind of changes come about in Kali, what actually gets installed on TQ, since test is just that, test, and see what comes about. I really don't feel that much is going to change design wise between test and TQ, but we'll see. The devs don't spend a ton of time designing something and then publish it to the test server, only to completely change it before pushing it to TQ. I really like flying Vindicators. They're exciting and fun to fly- the improved cap, the increased agility, it really is what the Megathron always should have been. Even the Hyperion no less. But with the upcoming design changes in Kali with respect to the HP increase etc. I'll just have to wait and see if flying a Vindi is even viable anymore. Hopefully the ECM changes in Kali will have some sort of effect on regular ships fitting ECM, but I anticipate the ECM strength rigs being the hot item at the beginning in order for people to recove most of their lost ECM effectiveness. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 05:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Trem Sinval Conclusions ----------- A ship fitting a single ECCM module will experience, on average, two-thirds as many jams as a non-fitted ship. In the described example, an ECCM module would have halved the chance of the jams occuring. In the first example, fitting a jammer gives the player a 25% chance to completely negate primary ship systems, while an ECCM would give the player 33% more time out of jam, or 33% more effective time (than a ship without). As it is clear that making consecutive jams with a single jammer fitted becomes increasingly difficult, and ECCM module effects do not experience the degradation of effectiveness (statistical effectiveness, luck notwithstanding), it is obvious that ECCM modules are more effective in combat, especially when taken with the knowledge that jammers require large sums of energy to operate, while ECCM does not. Having said that, however, jammers, while having a statistically lower chance of serving their purpose than an ECCM, have a much larger effect, the majority of a ship's damage coming from it's primary weapons and targetted modules. However, whether it is philosophically better to use one or the other is uncertain. This discourse is only designed to prove the efficacy of using an ECCM module in situations where jamming is likely. - Trem For the sake of argument, lets assume that the above is correct (not saying it isn't, but I'm simply not going to take the effort to break out the math when so many others have done so already, with varying degrees of success). Fitting one ECCM that increases my sensor strength by 96% that reduces my chance of being jammed to 66% (approx.) of that with no ECCM is unacceptable. If I fit a midslot ECCM, I expect to reduce my chance of being jammed to around 10-15%. To me a 90% resistance to being jammed is a reasonable level to expect from a mid slot dedicated to the sole job of keeping me from being jammed. Note that this example is with respect to a non-ECM ship fitting one ECM module, not a dedicated ECM ship fitting multiple specific modules designed specifically to defeat me. A 30% reduction in jams is complete crap from a best named ECCM module. It is not cost effective slot-wise to fit it when I could fit something more effective (my own ECM). In addition to the pure jamming aspect of ECM, you also have to take into account the re-lock time required to re-engage the target. This is one prime factor why ECM is so effective towards battleships since their re-lock time is generally 10-15 seconds minimum depending on target type, and by this time, even if you miss a jam cycle, you might get the next one and they'll have had a targeting window of around 5-10 seconds before they're jammed again, even if you only get every other jam. Anyway, this discussion is pointless. No one is going to change their minds, ECM isn't going to be changed enough to matter and the game will continue on as it always has. Because I said so...

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